On this week’s episode of Scaleup Marketing, I’m joined by Lynne Capozzi, the CMO of Acquia. Lynne and I talk about moving from Marketo to the Acquia Campaign Studio and the importance of “drinking your own champagne”. We also talk about how to execute a large website redesign project and why Lynne fought to rebrand the traditional sales kickoff as a “sales + marketing kickoff.
[00:00:00] Tom Wentworth: [00:00:00] hey Lynne, how are you?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:00:01] Hey, Tom. I’m great. Thank you. How are you?
Tom Wentworth: [00:00:04] I’m great. It’s good to talk to you. It’s been a about nine months or so, is that right?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:00:10] Yep. I think so. Right. Time flies,.
Tom Wentworth: [00:00:13] talk a little bit about yourself and your role.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:00:15] Sure. I’m the CMO at Acquia. So I have responsibility for all of the global marketing functions at Acquia. ,
Tom Wentworth: [00:00:22] this is your second time in Acquia. You and I have both been back in Acquia two times. We
Lynne Capozzi: [00:00:28] are, we are both boomerang. Hers. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I’ve been here now for about a little over three years, and then I was CMO back towards closer towards the beginning of Acquia, for a few years and left in between to go run a nonprofit, raise my kiddos and, do a little consulting work.
So, and then, I was happy to be back, as I say, fell back in love again and came back in.
Tom Wentworth: [00:00:53] Yeah, it was interesting for me to, to be there in the middle part. So you were there in the early part. I was there in the middle part and for me to come back and [00:01:00] see how you adapted the marketing team is, is a former CMO.
And now his current CMO, I’m like, Oh, so that’s how you’re supposed to build marketing teams at big companies. It was really interesting to see how that team exactly evolved and. it was fun to be able to go back.
And even if it was a pretty short time, the second time for me to see all the things he did, and it was a really impressive for me to say,
Lynne Capozzi: [00:01:23] well, I really enjoyed working with you. So we’re still missing you at Acquia.
Tom Wentworth: [00:01:26] The big challenge for me is at Acquia.
I was a subject matter expert and you would put me on stage a lot and I would appreciate that. It’s hard here because I am the furthest thing from a subject matter expert in cybersecurity. I know enough to get through an elevator pitch, it’s one of the hard adjustments for me is I don’t get to do that anymore.
And I miss it.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:01:44] I bet. I bet.
Tom Wentworth: [00:01:45] so thanks for joining me this podcast. It’s like a forcing function for me to talk to people smarter than me that I can learn from. And there’s three things I pulled out that I want to learn from you. And these are all three things.
That I’m currently facing at recorded future. So I’m hoping that we [00:02:00] can go into those three things and they are switching marketing automation platforms. So you just, I think, finished up a big migration away from Marketo. So I’m going to talk to you all about that. A couple of years ago, you did a huge website redesign and I’m about to do the same.
So I’d love to get your experience in that. And then lastly, I love one of the things I noticed you did at Acquia was. Change the sales kickoff to be a sales and marketing kickoff. And I thought that was brilliant. And it’s it. Wasn’t just a name only like you actually made marketing a first-class citizen at the event.
So I want to ask you about that a little bit, because it’s something that we wanted to hear at quarter feature too. Sound good? Okay.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:02:37] I’m ready. I’m going
Tom Wentworth: [00:02:38] to keep you busy so you better be ready.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:02:40] All right. Fire away,
Tom Wentworth: [00:02:42] so let’s start with, with marketing automation ? So for a long time, Acquia was a big Marketo shop.
I’m a HubSpot user here, and I feel like, with a marketer or a HubSpot, you pick it for the right reasons, you scale with it, but then you get to a part, a point where things start to break. [00:03:00] And we’re definitely at that point now with HubSpot, where is a much bigger company than we were when we picked it, things are just really starting to break.
So, but switching marketing automation is one of the hardest things to do in business. it’s such an operational part of the day-to-day workflow of a marketer. as you made to that journey yourself to switch from Marketo to your own campaign studio, how did all that work?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:03:23] So it was a big project, for sure. You know, first of all, I, I approached it as we, we really wanted to do it for a couple of reasons. One of which is. I always want to drink our own champagne, as I say. So, you know, Monica, which is now called campaign studio is, was one of our products. We had an acquired product and we want, I wanted to be able to use the product ourselves one so that we can provide product feedback to the product team.
as well as obviously I want to be able to have our own product shine and to be able to use it as a marketer and also would give me confidence in terms of talking to other marketers about using a product. So, I figured we probably had Marketo for [00:04:00] maybe seven years. I don’t know. Did you install it with you?
Tom Wentworth: [00:04:03] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We just purchased it like two weeks before I started.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:04:08] Yeah. So probably maybe seven years or so. Yeah, is what I’m guessing. So, you know, we had it for a very long time and then not. And obviously, you know, we have had a team of people that work on it. I’d have to hire Marketo specialists that knew a lot about Marketo to even use the product.
And it was becoming a pretty large team of people, just to be able to support the product and then having just the overhead costs of that. So not only the cost of the people, but. You know, the cost of just the, the whole using Marketo itself, where they, whereas, you know, if you’re at a million records or larger, you know, you, it’s very, very costly.
And so I was really looking to reduce my costs, not have to have such expertise within the staff and to be able to have the team use an easier product for what we wanted to accomplish. Particularly when it came to things like, you know, cross channel. So, so it was many months in the [00:05:00] making, but it’s because I wanted to make sure that we did it the right way that we transitioned everything over.
and it’s done today. I’m completely off of Marketo and I’m really glad that we made the switch.
Tom Wentworth: [00:05:10] Yeah. Congratulations. What was the, what was the hardest part about that journey?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:05:17] I think the hardest part was just identifying what we did have in Marketo. I mean, we had like give you an example, like we had, even like we were using Marketa to do forms for the site.
We had like 500 forms. So even just tracking them down to try to figure out what we had. That was that wasn’t like one of the biggest things that we had to go through is we weren’t even sure what was in there. You know, like we’re kind of weeding through seven years of trying to, you know, get to the bottom.
So, I think that was probably one of the hardest parts was just, you know, doing the inventory to know exactly what we had and what we were transferring over. But, you know, campaign studio is pretty agile. So I went from 500 forms to 20. Wow. Yeah. So, so much easier for us. And then just using the product [00:06:00] itself is easier.
So I can have the campaign management folks do those in marketing operations. Do my campaigns much faster, quicker, easier than what we ever had
Tom Wentworth: [00:06:08] before. And you said something about channels. Are you doing more channels with campaign city or now, too? Yeah,
Lynne Capozzi: [00:06:14] exactly. So not, it’s not just email. Right. We just did email through my kiddo, but now we’re doing, you know, social texting.
Yep. You know how other channels? Yeah. Cool.
Tom Wentworth: [00:06:25] I get a call from a Marketo rep right around renewal time, or they know exactly when our renewal is and right around renewal time. I get that call. Hey, are you ready to move? And maybe after this conversation, I’ll get a call from some Acquia BDRs.
my renewal’s up I’m in three weeks. So they have a very short window. But for people like me, it seems daunting to move off for all the reasons you talked about. We have processes, we have hundreds of forms. We have hundreds of automations, but I think you’re saying there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
If you put the effort into getting there. So would you [00:07:00] encourage other people to not be afraid of, of looking at moving if they’re not happy with what they have?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:07:05] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don’t think anyone wants to go into a, like a rip and replace situation. Right. Because it’s daunting and it’s difficult and it’s a little bit challenging, but for me, in terms of doing it.
it was definitely worthwhile. I’m glad that we did it and glad we took the time upfront to go through it all. And, it definitely was worthwhile. So yes, I would, I would certainly encourage people to take a look at it. and to, you know, don’t be afraid to embark on it because it is well worth it.
Tom Wentworth: [00:07:30] Yeah. Excellent. So the second thing is. You did a big website redesign. That was one of the things that, you know, that I, I was very clear as I was following your journey and Acquia journey. And it wasn’t like a little project. I think it was a massive, like start from scratch project, you know, driven in part by your, your need for a more modern visual brand driven by, I think the migration to Drupal eight, you know, I’m in the same boat now, you know, we have a, a [00:08:00] WordPress site.
when I joined here, the first question everyone asks is, are we going to move our site to Drupal? And, we have some people on the team that are staunch WordPress advocates, and we’re not going to move to a, to Jupa right now, but. we do have a big website redesign project in mind, and it’s scary as heck, to be honest with you, it’ll be one of the biggest things we’ve ever done at recorded.
Future it be the biggest single investment we’ve probably ever made at recorded future. So I want to ask you a little bit about that. so even though I know it’s your business. I think it was a big project for you, right?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:08:32] It was a huge project for us because when we embarked on the new site, we did, we also did a rebranding.
So it was one of the reasons why we did it actually, just because we needed to refresh our brand. and it was certainly time for us to do that. Literally we had a six-year-old site and it was time for us to rebrand and do the site all at the same time. So it was a big project.
Tom Wentworth: [00:08:52] And that six year old site was not much different than the ten-year-old site.
We just put a little fresh coat of paint on it. You, you did [00:09:00] a whole, you tore the house down and built it up from, from scratch, right?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:09:02] We did. We didn’t. Exactly.
Tom Wentworth: [00:09:04] Yup. And so we did, we did that the actual brand redesign three months ago. So we did it a little bit, the other way around. we did a whole brand refresh project and the last channel it’s going to go live on is going to be the website.
So in some ways we have parts of that solve. But I’m scared, where to start, we’re going to work with an agency that’s actually a pretty strong Acquia partner, but my questions are like project management. how long did this project take end to end?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:09:33] I’d say probably start to finish. I can remember kind of seeking the funding and the like it’s fun kind of day one. And then I’d say probably I’d say like seven months altogether.
Tom Wentworth: [00:09:44] how hard was it to get funding? I haven’t brought my final request to my boss yet. how hard was it?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:09:52] it it’s always a process, right?
And so you need to work with kind of your internal stakeholders, but I worked on the exec team, a [00:10:00] couple of goal rounds, I’d say. So it took a couple of presentations in order to, you know, to do convincing when, what finally got the entire exec team to, The two to agree on it and to have us move forward on it was when our CFO, agreed.
And when he, that day in the meeting, when he turned and he said, I think this will be a good investment. I said, slips up that piece of paper right across the table sign right here.
Tom Wentworth: [00:10:20] Right here.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:10:21] Yeah. Well,
Tom Wentworth: [00:10:23] no agrees on it. Yeah. There you go.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:10:25] Well, because I think we were able to show, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of good return on investment.
You can get, especially right now, right. With everything being such a hundred percent digital, it’s like. In some ways, like it’s every everyone’s content bingeing, everyone’s going to sites, everyone’s spending so much time that it’s, you know, you need to make sure that your site is, you know, not just reflecting your brand.
Right. But it, but that it’s, you know, is it providing value? Is it, is the right messaging? Is it the right level of content? Because everyone’s doing content researching themselves, right? Yeah.
Tom Wentworth: [00:10:57] It’s interesting too. We spend all this money on. [00:11:00] Brand awareness. We spent all this money on demand, gen everything converts to the website, but like you said, it’s these awful landing pages that are five years old.
It’s this awful website that’s slow and hard to navigate with content that’s dated. It’s so it’s funny it’s but it’s so much easier to justify spending money in other places, but then it comes to the website and you’re like, well, no, that, that large multi six figure check, we’re going to re how are you going to justify that?
Well, everything else is going to work better because we have this amazing website. and you guys work with an agency to like a pretty big, pretty big digital agency.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:11:36] We did. We
Tom Wentworth: [00:11:37] did that. How did you select that agency? How, how complex of a process was that?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:11:43] well, it was a typical RFP process.
Tom Wentworth: [00:11:45] So we,
Lynne Capozzi: [00:11:46] you know, we picked a couple of we, I think maybe we picked four, to bid out to, and then we worked with them through the process. We picked someone that could help us not only on site design, but also on, branding. And so we picked an organization that could help us, you know, really help us [00:12:00] with whole exercise.
We had to go through for rebranding as well as kind of the design of the site. And then we actually did the development work ourselves because I wanted my team to be able to do the, you know, we didn’t need help on development for it. Cause that’s what we do.
Tom Wentworth: [00:12:12] Right.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:12:13] so we did, they did that branding and helped us with branding and design.
Then we did the implementation and then, you know, we’re still updating, right? So that’s, that’s over fed over two years now. We’re in the process right now of a little site. it’s not, not as major effort as what we did before, but we’re migrating over to Drupal nine. we’re taking advantage of that, of migration and now looking at a different user interface for the site.
So again, we’re polishing it up because. You know, the thing about your site, right? Is when do you, when do you ever done? Never because it’s always, it’s always ongoing, but we’re using the same branding. We’re sticking with the same messaging that’s been working for us for the past year and a half or so.
Tom Wentworth: [00:12:49] I think it’s been consistent, you’ve resisted the urge to make any sort of big changes, I think, which is great. How, which content came over from, [00:13:00] from the new site. So one of the challenges we have is, we have. 10 years of content and more than two thirds of it is completely out of date and needs to be refreshed.
Did you just start from scratch, migrate over, how much content came over from the old site to the new site?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:13:16] I don’t know exactly how much, but I, we did do the first thing that we did was a content audit. So that’s definitely the first piece of work that we did was to figure out what do we have.
What’s the dates around it. How much of it is still applicable today? So a percentage, I don’t know exactly what percent, but over half of it came over, but we did have a good percentage that we just did not pour it over because it may have been out of date. You know, we’ve had blog entries from, you know, 12 years ago, you know, those could go.
So we definitely didn’t have a very thorough content audit as we were bringing things over.
Tom Wentworth: [00:13:50] Did that have, yeah. Did that have any negative SEO implications to your member?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:13:55] We, we did not because we were trying to make sure that we kept an SEO focus the [00:14:00] whole time we were designing and building the site.
And that was one of our main criteria, because as I said to the team, probably three times a week, I don’t want my SEO.
Tom Wentworth: [00:14:09] Right.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:14:11] It was this a continue. That was always a message that I said continuously is that let’s make sure we’re looking at it from the right SEO perspective and that the team was able to do that.
Tom Wentworth: [00:14:21] And then the other question I have, and this is maybe the biggest one is, I mean, you’ve got strongly opinionated, executive leadership team, the guy who built Drupal, included in that conversation. how did you deal with the challenges of, especially at Acquia where you’re surrounded by people that literally build websites for a living.
how did you handle the design by committee? My opinion, the highest paid person’s opinion problem. How did you fight that?
Lynne Capozzi: [00:14:48] Well, first of all, we developed like a steering committee internally and that steering committee had a couple of execs on it, the ones that would be most vocal. And so we would give periodic updates to the steering committee.
we [00:15:00] also make sure that we balance that by having external stakeholders. So, you know, so if someone has a personal opinion, you know, I don’t want that font to be that large. I don’t want that. I don’t think this is what our, you know, subheads should say. the best way I think, to always combat that is to say, well, we’ve tested it externally.
And here’s what our customers and partners are saying. And so I would always use that if there was any, if there was any type of a big, like design decision to make, I would test it externally, with a handful of people. And it was a good way for us to have a checks and balance. And then we just, you know, kept people updated and the times we would say, we’re moving on now.
We’ve already decided on this design, because then what happens is people try to backtrack, right? And then you can’t move forward if you’re always backtracking. And so we had a very clear decision-making process. Here’s what it is. We’ve closed on this. We’re moving on now we’re onto this section and then we would try not to revisit and not to go back.
Occasionally we had to. but, but we would try hard not to. Did you ever
Tom Wentworth: [00:15:55] have a situation where regardless of what the data said, we’re not going to do [00:16:00] this.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:16:02] sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s more, the other way around, which is, there were definitely a couple of times where, you know, the other execs would say, I want this and I’d say the data doesn’t support that.
And you know, if you hear five, six times, I want this, I want this. Eventually I’m going to give it to them because you just gotta, you know, you just gotta move on through the process, but you know, a little bit of a negotiation, I think too, So you’ve,
Tom Wentworth: [00:16:28] you’ve heard good advice. Or if you want to get Lynn to do something, ask her five times and at a fifth time, she might decide to take you seriously.
I’ll make sure to send that clip to the rest of the Acquia exec team for you.
So my last question is on sales and marketing kickoff. you flew everyone in marketing out to this.
marketing and sales were partnered together in this annual kickoff. And it’s something that we just changed here. Recorded future because of you. So thank you. We are now going to call [00:17:00] ours revenue kickoff, and it was the same situation you probably used to face.
But talk to me about that change and what drove it and how you sold it internally in the organization. Cause I’m guessing it was a big investment. It was
Lynne Capozzi: [00:17:12] a big investment. but one that I’m so, so happy that we did. and I’ve done this in my past as well, but you know, when I came back in, it was a couple of months before kickoff.
And the question was is, you know, can you name your three marketers that you’re going to send the kickoff? I’m like, what are you talking about? I’m only sending three people. Like what, how could that be? So that’s when I said, okay, next time we have kickoff. We are going to have a sales and marketing combined kickoff.
I put it in my budget in the beginning of the year. So right now I’m allocating a budget for next year and it’s included in there. Hopefully. I don’t know, maybe next year it won’t be virtual. Who knows. But, but, but, so I allocated out as part of my marketing budget to have the people come in from all around the world.
and then we made sure that, and I’m spending time now when our content to make sure that we have the right level of marketing content as well. And sales and [00:18:00] marketing is definitely. You know, synced up together. It’s really important because as marketers, you need it, you need to hear the same story that the sales folks are, are telling, right.
And you need to be part of that and we need, and I also want them to have that feeling of inclusion and enthusiasm and energy, and like part of a big thing, a kickoff is just pumping people up and why wouldn’t we want marketers to feel that same way, you know, and be pumped up in that same way. So it’s now it’s just given that I was like, Oh yeah, sales and marketing kickoff.
Everyone’s going. Yeah, we work on the content together, myself and the CRO. and it’s, you know, we do it hand in hand. Now there’s no questions about it. It
Tom Wentworth: [00:18:36] sucks. It sucks because it’s hard. whether it’s three people or four people or five people, there’s always the sixth who, you know, deserves to go, but you got to draw the line somewhere.
It was hard for us. Here virtual kickoff is easy. we have enough on our zoom meeting for as many people as we want, but I’m going to do what you did and fight for actual TNE to cover the entire marketing team, getting [00:19:00] together.
And that’s, it’s a six figure plus investment, obviously. I feel like it sends such a terrible message to the person who was number six or seven or 10 on that list. You’re not important enough to our revenue future that you’re going to stay home while everyone else is going out and networking and learning.
And it’s just such a. In retrospect since it’s a terrible message,
Lynne Capozzi: [00:19:21] right? Yeah, totally agree. But now that you know, now that at least, you know, probably for the first half of the year, probably all kickoffs will be virtual. It’s a great opportunity to include for people to include all of marketing and make sure that there’s, you know, an agenda set that covers marketing topics as well.
You know? So it’s prime time for
Tom Wentworth: [00:19:36] everybody. So for marketing specific activities, was there a part of it, you carved out specific just for marketing.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:19:45] Yeah. So we did a marketing department day, if you will, when we were in person and we’re doing the same thing actually virtually.
So the last day of kickoff is all of marketing together. and we would cover the marketing plan and marketing topics and then do a lot of, team-working sessions together and brainstorming. [00:20:00] And one of the things that I always had, and I’m doing it again this year is that day, that marketing department day is really for.
The junior members of the team to get up and present. It’s not, for me, it’s not for my direct reports, not for the managers, individual contributors that get up and they present and talk about what they do or they get to participate in a brainstorming session. But, I want to see that agenda, which is, you know, 90%, all the junior members of the
Tom Wentworth: [00:20:25] team.
Yeah, they hear from you enough. They don’t, they don’t need to hear from you again, let your kickoff,
Lynne Capozzi: [00:20:29] right,
Tom Wentworth: [00:20:30] right. Great. For
Lynne Capozzi: [00:20:31] them in terms of their own development and career development. And it gets them pumped, you know, really does.
Tom Wentworth: [00:20:37] It’s a less scary environment than doing it in other place and other places in front of other people.
Right. It’s a good way to get practice.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:20:44] Yeah, exactly.
Tom Wentworth: [00:20:46] I also like what did you call the dedicated weeks where There was no meetings.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:20:50] Oh, we called them. I think I might’ve missed named it, but I called it a marketing scrum week.
And so basically what we do is I give people permission one week, a quarter [00:21:00] to not go to meetings. And so I give them air cover in the company. I say, we’re in marketing scrum week. We are heads down. Everyone is working and no meetings. and that includes no zooms right now. And so we develop a list.
Everyone needs to put together a list of. What accomplishments they want to make during that time. And, and we track it on a nightly basis. We report back out how many tasks items were completed, how many more to go. We encourage members of the team to, you know, get going. You can do five more. and we just get an incredible amount of work done, throughout the week.
And, it’s great because it’s the one thing that people wanted, right? The one thing that people want is more time. How can you give you more time? And so this was one way to do it was to keep them out of meetings and to have heads down, working
Tom Wentworth: [00:21:41] time. How much of your day spent meetings? I always find that fascinating.
Are you, are you like, you have 10 30 minute meetings a day or.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:21:49] I have quite a few. Yeah. I do have a lot. And then I ended up, you know, I ended up catching up at night. There’s no question. but I do try to block out those times when I really need [00:22:00] thinking time and working time. Like I’ve been blocking out time now to work on my 2021 plan.
and I make sure that I carve out enough time to spend enough focus
Tom Wentworth: [00:22:08] during the week. Like literally block your calendar off. So no one can bother you time.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:22:11] Yes. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I have to, otherwise I can’t, I need that concentrated period of time to really, you know, put pen to paper and really, you know, have the time to work on it.
So, but there’s a, there’s a lot of other meetings in between. No question.
Tom Wentworth: [00:22:28] Well, the next thing I’ll steal from you is going to be scrum week. If I come up with a better name for it, I will let you know, but I probably will just keep the name and your honor, and we’ll cause it was such a great idea
Lynne Capozzi: [00:22:39] right. I love it. It really is a, I don’t know. It’s I think it’s one of the best, best gifts I’ve been given to the team, you know? Cause they really, they really value it a lot. And people will say when scrum week, when is it?
When is it? You know? So I know that
Tom Wentworth: [00:22:51] people took it seriously. Like no meetings, like it was not like a nice, it was, you would not book a meeting with anyone on your team during that period. And people understood why and [00:23:00] you’d communicate the results after the week. And it was clear that a bunch of work got done.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:23:05] we were in the, when we were in the office, I used to walk around to make sure there wasn’t any violations going on. It became a kid, became a joke, you know, but if two people were sitting in a conference room together, I’d come in and this isn’t a meeting, is it? And
Tom Wentworth: [00:23:17] here
Lynne Capozzi: [00:23:17] it came a joke. So
Tom Wentworth: [00:23:19] that’s hilarious.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:23:20] It was awesome. I can’t do that
Tom Wentworth: [00:23:21] virtually. Yeah. I learned a lot from you just in that time they had Acquia, you embodied a lot of what it takes to be CMO of a really big company and a lot of those types of lessons I’m trying to apply here.
So I’ll definitely apply the scrum lesson here as well. But I do want to thank you for yeah. For helping me out.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:23:39] Thank you. And I’ve learned a lot from you as well. So we miss having you on stage.
Tom Wentworth: [00:23:44] You miss my speaking, it incredibly fast pace. That was my biggest contribution
Lynne Capozzi: [00:23:50] and a hundred ideas.
Tom Wentworth: [00:23:52] And a hundred ideas and one of them would be good. I still, I see the website still has my idea, like putting the picture of dress on it still. So that was apparently good [00:24:00] enough to have lasted for 12 months.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:24:01] That’s right. Exactly.
Tom Wentworth: [00:24:03] So there you go. Well then thanks so much for your time today. Really enjoy this as always stay in touch and thank you.
Lynne Capozzi: [00:24:09] Thank you, Tom. Yeah, you stay in touch as well. Happy holidays.